C This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale. 26, 1991 by the local newspaper used the father's surname however 1 It is however one of the very few documents available online that precedes the legal action and the status of the fatehr as chief suspect. Frankly I'd rewrite the entire thing into something that resembled reality but there's too many nuts on Wiki for facts to last long. Why on earth are you injecting the execution of regular every-day folk "off the street" (without any arrest, accusation, trial, conviction, etc.) into the conversation? Hurst concluded the fire was accidental which completely absolves Willingham of any wrongdoing regardless of unreliable testimony from an angry ex wife and contradictory statements from neighbors. The man is innocent and the page should reflect that. Ml Preceding unsigned comment added by ( talk ) 15:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC) Not crazy at all. Drown in blood of their Genocide. Dwarfpower ( talk ) 11:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC) I would say "no". Keywordtopstory I'm trying to see if the public can attend this event, I plan to.
That is not a fact, it is an argument made by Gann, the Innocence Project, and others. However, I see no mention of that in this article.- Skintigh ( talk ) 16:24, (UTC) Got a reference or a link so interested people can check it out and include it in the article? Defenseless to push away the tide. At least when those claims get cited as politcial debate on todd willingham essay fact by bigotted hate-mongers such as yourself. And that clearly violates npov. Chicago Tribune, december 9, 2004, todd, willingham, his children, and burned house. I will search for that" when I can.
If we are going to" a 2-member dissent from a decision, and they are careful enough to state only that they have not found it unconstitutional, it is not wise for us as observers to translate that into "it has. There's a process in place. That would also remove the requirement to try and present this article as a "biography" article when it really isn't. While the probability gets bigger and bigger that we may administer a "wrong" execution (of an innocent man there is no guarantee that that will ever happen. I wonder of the governor's motives in sweeping "three appointees from their jobs politcial debate on todd willingham essay just two days before they were set to critically examine a flawed arson investigation that contributed to the execution of a Corsicana man" ibid. As regards how long you have lived there and your opinion of the place; pack your bags and move.
If these occurrences are both obvious and routine, you should have no trouble providing several specific names, cases, and examples of such. Senate has been addressing in recent hearings. I was asking that editor to provide the purported list of said executed innocents. People's idea of "proof" may vary, ofc. Fleeting urges to brutalize myself for releasement of this "system" created rage of destructive isolation My worse prison? First, I doubt that there is enough material to warrant two separate articles. FMChimera ( talk ) 14:26, (UTC) Well, absolutely nobody has contradicted the Beyler review on its merits. Instead of wondering, you could certainly do that. Most people don't care and of those that do, most don't buy. So, let's say it's false. This scientific testimony was the primary basis of his conviction.
For example, I had once been to the Federal Building in Oklahoma City but escaped it with disproportionate injuries (i.e. I am certain that there are many, many, many cases in which innocent people are convicted. By Todd Willingham # 999041 Promised Lies. There is NO repeat NO exculpatory evidence; that is to say, evidence that he didn'T start the fire deliberately. Preceding unsigned comment added by ( talk ) 15:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC) Add that information into the article, then, if you have politcial debate on todd willingham essay a reliable source that indicates what you have claimed. Preceding unsigned comment added by ( talk ) 02:02, (UTC) One would have to petition the Texas Criminal Court for release of the documents. Spadaro, 6 September 2009) What a strange parsing of the actual", from the 2-Justice dissent referenced: "This court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full.
You make the following claim: "Texas has a long, rich history of convicting and even executing innocent people. Patsw ( talk ) 16:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC) I can hardly believe what I am reading here. Your intent may have been to make said observation. If a wrong can be righted, it should. I think it would be impossible at this point to reduce the pro-innocence content of the article, the only way to provide an npov and due weight to the innocence supporting content is adding guilt-supporting content in summary form. Personal attacks diminish the quality of this site and encourage people who actually have something to to contribute to leave. I want to remind editors, that this is not a place to debate, but to reach a consensus on editing an article which serves one goal: informing the reader about Cameron Willingham in a manner that presents multiple points.
Ks64q2 ( talk ) 16:23, (UTC) more from texas gov perry's office edit perry refuses to release the letter sent from attorney who initially pointed out the bad arson evidence to hault the willingham execution: ml perry tried to pressure. These are not the same thing. I just had a question. There is nothing more beautiful than you on this earth: I cannot express what your beauty is worth. I do not know that politcial debate on todd willingham essay it has happened. None of these document say he was innocent nor guilty.
It reads as an advertisement to be honest. In other words, the entire topic of our conversation was. FMChimera ( talk ) 14:51, (UTC) So putting an innocent man to death is ok then? Or, so says Jackson. Ml It's entirely you. I'm looking for npov and much of what I'm reading is very POV. (See the following article that recently appeared in Newsweek : Innocent Until Executed: We Have No Right to Exoneration.) So, while it may be morally repugnant. The alleged murders were the result of a fire, supposedly arson. Whatever our personal opinions may be, this article should present both sides. Danras ( talk ) 11:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC) What about the eye witness testimony? Experts testified at his trial that it was arson, and it (presumably) followed that Willingham was the only one who could have said. Into life we are cast Pushed. Why are you suggesting that editors specifically remove (i.e., "scrub facts that are accurate.
2004 Who knew that justice could be so blind The scales to rust with the passage of time stripped of love, my life, all but pride Everyday my Hands are tied. InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug ) 17:21, (UTC) External links modified edit Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 3 external links on Cameron Todd Willingham. M, (December 31, 1969). Frankly, if I knew that my children were in a burning house and presumably dead or soon to be dead, I rather doubt that I would be preoccupied by trying to move my car to avoid damage. The parameters for that" are very constrained, and represented the view of only 2 Justices - the minority in a 7-2 decision, which you also did not reveal. I do, however, assert that as time goes on, the probability of such an occurrence approaches. The latter requires the former; since we know the former has happened, it's only one further step to the latter. The whole justice system, truly is tigged. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to blocks. In all that time, and in all those "x" number of executions, we have absolutely zero evidence / proof of an innocent man being executed. This Wikipedia article should present the evidence that was presented at trial, but also explain how fire investigation at the time was unscientific and how that has been shown in the later years. Furthermore, Willingham volunteered the alarming statement, prior to formal accusation, that he poured cologne over the floor in the areas suggested as places where accelerants were spread "because the children liked the smell". I remember reading a prominent abolitionist who said that anyone who takes up the cause of a condemned man who claims he or she is innocent has a duty to read the trial transcript, talk to the prosecutor.
This account was reported and written by Maurice Possley for The Marshall Project, and published in conjunction with The Washington Post. Patsw ( talk ) 19:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC) Agreed. Frank talk 15:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC) First of all the New Yorker is not the only paper following this tragedy. It was indeed you who strongly advocated purging this article of correct facts that point to guilt. Perhaps, by the logic of those who accused him, the witnesses were trying to send him to prison because he was always borrowing their money, and not returning it, or any other silly reason. The Chicago paper hired a fire expert who came to the same conclusions regarding the arson "evidence" against Willingham. Death penalty proponents may not want to admit it, but since we are all capable of making mistakes, and since we have documented cases of death-row inmates being exonerated, why should we assume we've always gotten it right? However, it now turns out that the theories these experts used have been discredited, and the fire may not have been arson at all. I didn't see any explanation for why moving the car was not very odd behavior. Frank talk 15:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC) Something to consider edit this will likely be the first case of an innocent man being exectuted in modern times and therefore the article is likely to get a lot of activity. Edit While there's an understandable amount of space given to the theories of Hurst and Beyler, being as the main notability of this case is that there was some dispute, very little space is given to the rebuttals from Corsicana. If he testified at a convict's sentencing hearing, he was almost like the grim reaper as his appearance made it was almost predictable that the convict was going to die. I still invite you to reply to my post in the above section on this Talk Page (entitled, Article from The New Yorker magazine: "Trial by Fire.
PottedGold ( talk ) 23:31, (UTC) I agree. If this continues we might have some WP:POV or WP:weight issues. I'm also struck by the fact the article left out that Willingham's last words were apparently a curse directed at his ex-wife and an attempt to make an obscene gesture at her, since she and at least. If there was no arson, how could willingham have killed them? Specifically, where are the links to the various appeals court decisions in his case? No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Patsw ( talk ) 14:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC) Rationale. To reply to your immediately preceding post. It appears from the New Yorker piece, that more than one person connected with the case either had doubts as the investigation and trial unfolded or has doubts now.
Justice Denied 2004 Assurance My Daughters - Amber, Karmen Kameron This place I politcial debate on todd willingham essay am in is of steel and stone. Even that is a careful statement; they're not asserting that it is constitutional; merely that they have not yet found that it is unconstitutional. It is accepted (and yes, I can find citations for this claim) that people are wrongfully convicted of crimes all the time. But, we are not here to debate that. I didn't do the scrub. Spadaro, 5 September 2009) Proposal edit To support WP:npov, either: Add a full "evidence of guilt" section with cites or Drop the "evidence of innocence" section, and leave one sentence calling it a disputed verdict and let the reader read the footnotes for detail. Is this a hallmark of my guilt for the bombing and the framing of another? Ml Preceding unsigned comment added by Semi138 ( talk contribs ) 15:02, (UTC) Biased. Spadaro, 8 September 2009) You say that Willingham "can be guilty of a capital murder, without committing an arson." Wrong. Does anyone have an opinion on how it reads, and how it could be rewritten or re incorporated into the article without requiring it's own section?
Saying we haven't identified a case is not the same as saying it hasn't happened. Cameron, todd, willingham, texas executed. You make a number of points - some valid, some not. It is worth noting that Hurst, by his own admission, had time only for a fairly cursory meta-investigation, whereas Vasquez' investigation was done on scene at the time. Besides, how reliable is this witness testimony? You toss the coin 100 times, you don't get any tails. However his trial, execution and ensuing public debate clearly ARE notable. My speculation is that for the purpose of recording the birth, Willingham was not offered, or would not agree to be named as father of the first child, Amber, and then agreed to be recorded as the father of the twins, Karmon and Kameron.
And devoids your argument of any credibility. I don't want their needle laced in my arm, I could never have caused one of then harm. Typically the prosecution in cases similar to this can find witnesses willing to testify that the defendant could have been sadder or done more. Thanks for the clarification. Ctrack1 csettrue I do not have the time to follow this up, but it's hit the news that this man may in fact have been innocent. And, to Tim Pierce: you politcial debate on todd willingham essay reply "agreed" to this suggestion?
That is three months before the fire which killed the children. A quick review of the page history revealed little on the subject. As of February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. So if you are going to report it please do not ignore one side and just make unsubstantiated claims by the DA and his ilk. Ltnowis ( talk ) 04:14, (UTC) I politcial debate on todd willingham essay agree that there are almost no facts on Willingham's life other than those related to the death penalty case. Ml Gwopy ( talk ) 01:59, (UTC) Perry did this because he has an election coming. This article is of interest to the following. I disagree, however, that the probability must reach 1 (as you claim). This beauty of yours captured my heart: I've had those feelings right from the start.
WikiProject Crime To-do : Here are some tasks you can do to help with WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography : Requests : start a new article for Yazeed Essa, m (2012 start a new article for Kip McFarlin. ( talk ) 14:36, (UTC) Texas Gov. As I said, you and I must agree to disagree on this one. This message is updated dynamically through the template sourcecheck (last update: ). Tattered In a cold crystal cell So long ago, so far away was everything truly there or dreams spun on a merry - go - round In this cold crystal Hell! Spadaro, 9 September 2009) Preceding unsigned comment added by ( talk ) 03:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC) how about add this photo to the article edit g Preceding unsigned comment added by ( talk ) 19:06, 9 September. The United States Supreme Court has held that executing an innocent person does not violate the United States Constitution.
That is a statistical fact. What better evidence / proof can one want? I think the article is incomplete if there is no statement by a forensic expert on an accidental cause for the fire that killed the 3 girls. Spadaro, 5 September 2009) This conversation runs a real risk of turning ugly pretty quickly, but there's no need for that. Preceding unsigned comment added by ( talk ) 03:57, (UTC) I'm going to wait for feedback on this until the 20th, upon which if none is received I will delete the section and integrate a short digest elsewhere. To-do list: Here are some tasks you can do to help with. Preceding unsigned comment added by FMChimera ( talk contribs ) 05:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC) I did not realize how old this argument was(1) This page does not belong to you and what you feel is clutter and what substantially. If we were discussing innocent people generally, I certainly was not aware of that. "mixed stylized explorations" and "cinema verite". Comment on content, not on the contributor.
Whether the article is convincing and persuasive or not. By Todd Willingham # 999041 De-Press-ion Drunk on given in / contemplating given up Dying before dying / lying, crying to yo/self while smiling with everyone else no mail, no hope / no exit, no love De-Press-ion Com-Press-ion Hearts bound with chains. What is buried is only the shell of what was do not regret the shell, but remember the man. InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug ) 22:26, 11 December 2017 (UTC). This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. FMChimera ( talk ) 14:24, (UTC) A note to those involved in this conversation- please do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Ronaldomundo ( talk ) 22:49, (UTC) I believe this should be referring to the notion that crazed glass indicated arson. Spadaro, 8 September 2009) then someone will have to seriously extends ( well arctually write ) the biographical portion. And ere was no "evidence / proof" (the two are not the same, by the way) that the earth was not the center of the universe, as science had held for centuries before Copernicus and Galileo.
Lay with Occam's razor and there you. Also, in a fire, injuries are typically disproportionate between groups that escape the fire and those that do not. Some may be willing to lie after being told that there was clear evidence of arson. This politcial debate on todd willingham essay is an encyclopedia, not a gossip column or a swishy academic textbook on film-making. It's going to be very interesting to me to see if it gets "wished" away by some of the people here who are pretty much Willingham advocates. My edits so far were to add some dates, citations, and to correct a incomplete". That some "experts" who never had an opportunity to view the sight, evidence or interview the killer have made unsupportable claims is a disgrace. EricEnfermero ( Talk ) 02:01, (UTC) External links modified edit Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Cameron Todd Willingham. Poor Sourcing of this Article edit I find myself wondering why no one has posted or made publicly available the key legal documents related to the Willingham case. His behavior is probative, even if not conclusive. Please provide the specific names and examples of innocent people executed by Texas.